Why is there no evidence of the Exodus? Barry Turner University of Lincoln

According to biblical scripture, the Hebrews led by the patriarch Moses took his formerly enslaved people out of Egypt during the reign of Rameses II.
The history of Rameses is exceptionally well documented but there is scant evidence of any such event.
Further, the scriptures tell us that Moses took his followers, numbering in the tens of thousands on a 40 year trek around what we today call the middle east.
No archeological evidence of any such diaspora has ever been found in any of the likely locations that this long event would have been situated and no historical documentation exists from any of the many different peoples that such an event would have affected.
Why is this?
Caanan, the alleged eventual destination of the Hebrews was under Egyptian control during this period so their arrival there would certainly have raised eyebrows among the Egyptian officials governing the province.
Diaspora

Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
Nigel
The paper is very interesting and consistent with much of the archaeological findings in the Levant. The monotheism which developed into a religion does appear to have evolved from a wide selection of sources as would be logical. It is clear that polytheistic faiths were present in the area for many centuries before the monotheistic faith gradually subsumed them.
I am not sure I can agree with the rather odd concept that Moses as the offspring of an Egyptian mother and a semitic father was consequently of a ‘superior race’. Egyptian politics and technology may have been more sophisticated than that of the semitic tribes to the north but neither was ‘racially superior’ to the other.
Nevertheless the paper presents a more realistic version of the events of the 2nd and 1st millenium BC than the scriptures which are of course heavily edited to favour the establishment of a priestly class and a religious hegemony.
The most interesting feature of the paper is the description of semitic religions that placed spirits in objects both animate and inanimate. That is the most fundamental of all religious/spiritual beliefs and is found in prehistoric cultures all over the world. It is not surprising that it predates by millenia the monotheism in what we now call the Holy Land.
Roger
You may continue with your input and hopefully at some point you will give some evidence of the Exodus, which is what the thread is about. Please could you concentrate on actual autoptic evidence such as archeological finds and corroborative accounts other than the Torah.
I am not trying to convert anyone here, simply trying to determine if biblical events can be objectively evidenced. Religious testimony is of little use when it comes to objectivity.

Kathleen D Toohey
International Arthurian Society (North American Branch)
According to “Prof. Israel Finkelstein, a senior researcher at the Department of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University and one of the most prominent scholars in the field of biblical archeology today. “The question of historical accuracy in the story of Exodus has occupied scholars since the beginning of modern research,” says Prof. Finkelstein. “Most have searched for the historical and archaeological evidence in the Late Bronze Age, the 13th century BCE, partly because the story mentions the city of Ramses, and because at the end of that century an Egyptian document referred to a group called ’Israel‘ in Canaan. However, there is no archaeological evidence of the story itself, in either Egypt or Sinai, and what has been perceived as historical evidence from Egyptian sources can be interpreted differently. Moreover, the Biblical story does not demonstrate awareness of the political situation in Canaan during the Late Bronze Age – a powerful Egyptian administration that could have handled an invasion of groups from the desert. Additionally, many of the details in the Biblical story fit better with a later period in the history of Egypt, around the 7-6th centuries BCE – roughly the time when the Biblical story as we know it today was put into writing. “However, this was not a story invented by later authors, since references to the Exodus appear in Hosea and Amos’ chapters of prophecy, which probably date to the 8th century BCE, suggesting that the tradition is ancient. In this sense, some scholars propose that the origin lies in an ancient historical event – the expulsion of Canaanites from the Nile Delta in the middle of the second millennium BCE. In any case the Exodus story is layered and represents more than one period. “It seems that the story of the exodus was one of the founding texts of the Northern Kingdom (Israel) and that it came to Judah after the destruction of Israel. It is possible that in the later days of Judah, a time of approaching confrontation with Egypt, the story expressed hope, showing a clash with mighty Egypt of the distant past, in which the Children of Israel prevailed. Later the story held a message of hope for those exiled in Babylon, that it was possible to overcome exile, cross a desert and return to the land of the forefathers. Above all, the story of Exodus has been an eternal metaphor for escaping slavery for freedom, in Jewish and other traditions.””
https://english.tau.ac.il/news/exodus_history_and_myth
The above is in accord with all my own readings over many years. Nor should it be forgotten that the period when the Exodus was supposed to have taken place was a time of major social upheavals, roughly coinciding with the collapse of the Mycenaeans and the Hittites, and the incursions of the Sea Peoples around the eastern Mediteranean all the way down to Egypt.

12th Dec, 2017
Stanley Wilkin
University of London
There were in addition Egyptian forts along or not far from the route Moses took. They would probably have engaged the Israelites, who surely would have numbered far fewer than the Bible records-if they actually existed.
Egyptians were not a slave owning society as far as I’m aware. Certainly not in the fashion of Rome and Greece.
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12th Dec, 2017
James A Green
Services Unlimited, Hammond, LA, USA
A few years ago there were two reports. One was that scientists using an underwater camera had discovered chariots and other artifacts strewn along a stretch of the Red Sea far from land. The other was a paper on how wind, blowing a certain direction could push back the water and form a corridor for a short period of time. As to the desert, still a lot to explore.
2 Recommendations
12th Dec, 2017
James A Green
Services Unlimited, Hammond, LA, USA
RG is acting screwy. I type words and it changes them.
2 Recommendations
12th Dec, 2017
Stanley Wilkin
University of London
Although archaeology has provided evidence for much more ancient occupations of the Sinai, it has provided none for the period in question. Believing in the Bible as history is perhaps not wise as it is difficult to confirm any material within the Pentateuch, although there appears some basis in the 8th or 7th century onwards.
Imagine an elite group arriving back from exile, for example (there are other propositions), full of Mesopotamian myths and given the right of government by the dominant group, the Persians, perhaps up against internal competition to rule. Perhaps, their own history goes no further back than the 8th century, but that is fraught with discrepencies. That history mainly concerns the area around Jerusalem, and the more valid history of northern regions believing in El or YHWH is dismissed by the presiding kings of Judah and their priestly allies. Anyway, this group has to rule through priestly control, and if necessary force of arms. But, prompted by the Mesopotamian myths, they construct one based upon their West Semitic background, leavened with memories of exile. Probably like many ancient tribal groups coalescing into states due to outside pressures they construct a myth of conquest. They are not a numerous people, perhaps as few as 200,000. Nevertheless, they have a core of priests and scribes anxious to create an alternative history to the one of political and military failure they are accustomed to. In order to create a new state, they employ narratives like all other states of the time. They do not have the concept of truth and fiction as we do, but enjoy a concept of how fiction, the creation of a man or a group, can become reality. The act of creating literature is equal to greater acts of creation and becomes as real as the memories of their own more limited existences. The past they create from myths and legends of Mesopotamia and Egypt fills the yawning gaps of their early centuries evolving a tribal identity.
2 Recommendations
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
Hi Barry,
TY for starting this thread as off topic we agree in the cosmology thread.
The OP question itself exposes the straw -man argument and reason for lack of evidence where looked.
Ramses II lived about 500 years after the Exodus.
The Exodus was by the end of the old kingdom and the cause of the end of the old kingdom.
The end of the old kingdom/great pyramid era is itself a form of evidence of the Exodus.
Reference/references in ‘Bible Chronology’.
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12th Dec, 2017
Stanley Wilkin
University of London
I have never come across this belief in the exodus as part of the Old Kingdom, it would indeed be strange if it was. Nor have I actually heard of chariots in the Red Sea (or Reed Sea for that matter). Can you please show where you read this? Nevertheless, even if this were so it does not mean they are connected to Moses and the exodus.Would they not have disintegrated by now?
Roger, there is absolutely no genuine evidence for your belief, certainly not causing the end of that period, nor any genuine evidence for alien groups within Egypt during the Old Kingdom. But we do not know everything.
I do wonder why people struggle to accept there is no truth (or probably none) in these stories-as there is none (or probably none) to the legend of King Arthur, Guinevere (fashioned by French writers), but that they are simply well-written exercises in wishful thinking, the construction indeed of alternative realities.
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
Hi Stanley, i hold there is ample evidence for a reasonable open minded person.
I do not see how you can deny it, as if you have already fairly considered and rejected my evidence and references please list here what they are and why you discount them 🙂
so just because you and your school of thought does not know, do not assert I and mine are likewise ignorant.
the wise person admits they do not know when they do not know, then if they want to learn they ask and study w/ an open mind.
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
It is doubtful that a few bits of chariot found in the Red Sea would be sufficient archaeological evidence that Pharaoh’s army chased tens of thousands of people across it. In any case there was no need to, Sinai and Canaan were both occupied territory and to the north and east were empires who would have been unlikely to have welcomed the Israelites.
A more workable story is that a few people of Canaanite origin migrated from Egypt at about the end of the Old Kingdom, who had perhaps been made aware of the monotheism pioneered by Akhenaten. They could easily have used this as a foundation myth for a new ‘religion’.
The Egyptians kept slaves but it has long since been established that the major building projects right from the beginning were carried out by skilled artisans and agricultural workers acting as labour during periods when they were not needed on the land. Very large amounts of archaeological evidence support this, there is none that indicates a large scale slave economy. In a nutshell there was no economic or military reason why tens of thousands of people from Canaan would have been resident in Egypt at the time of Rameses II.
Another possibility is that Moses was actually an Egyptian (it is an Egyptian name) who being a subscriber to the monotheistic faith of Akhenaten took a small group of fellow believers north an east with him to escape the persecution that such heresy would have brought upon them. On arrival in the land further north it may have been easier for him to practice this religion and eventually exaggerated myths would have arisen about the arrival of a prophet.
The Exodus myth was not written until over more than 600 years after it was alleged to have taken place and this was at the time of the Babylonian exile when the Torah was invented. There is nothing like a bit of historical spin to get a religion going and you can’t go wrong with a real good story.
I wish all those with faith the very best and may it be of great comfort to them. I prefer evidence to belief and until I encounter a burning bush that want’s to correct me I will stick with history and archaeology
3 Recommendations
12th Dec, 2017
James A Green
Services Unlimited, Hammond, LA, USA
Okay, I see where the chariot story that was picked up by the major news services was a hoax. The article about Carl Drews’ dissertation concerning the wind parting water is below.
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/science-red-seas-parting-180953553/
12th Dec, 2017
Stanley Wilkin
University of London
Barry, I don’t believe you meant to associate Akhenten awith the Old Kingdom, but nevertheless although the Egyptians had a number of creation myths (clearly influencing Genesis) they had from the beginning a belief in a core divinity explored as I’m certain you know by Assmann, which correctly he attaches I believe to the Egyptian state-for the early Egyptians a crucible of powerful forces. It is possibly from this that the notion of an infinite, eternal god developed.
Originally, of course, YHWH seems to have a tribal or clan god who transformed gradually to fit that of the Egyptian example.
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
Stanley
I was not conflating the monotheism of Akhenaten with the Old Kingdom just examining some of the possible sources of the stories that made up the first five books of the Bible.
It is clear that the stories predate the Torah by centuries and that they must have arisen from multiple sources. Many of these are purely mythical but some may relate to stories told in an oral tradition that could have been many centuries old.
I agree entirely that Yaweh was a construct of a local divinity and imported ideas of monotheism. Yaweh would have been one of many gods (divinities) to be found in the territory we know as Canaan. We know that the people worshipped multiple gods from the archaeology.
Modern Christianity is a later manifestation of one religion adopting elements of pre existing ones. The Romans too assimilated local gods into their own rather complex pantheon ending up with a range from Ancient Greece to the Gods of Celtic Northern Britain.
The monotheistic religion of the Torah originated around 2500 years ago and claims placing it at a much earlier date are unsubtstantiated by any contemporary verification. There is nothing in the extensive written history of Ancient Egypt that mentions a Hebrew religion but plenty decribing the cults and rituals of rivals states in the neighbourhood.
Assmann got it spot on and his insight has helped not only in the understanding of the ancient world but in how religions are devised from folk stories.
2 Recommendations
12th Dec, 2017
Jan Gunneweg
Hebrew University of Jerusalem
Dear Barry, Decades agao I wrote a paper dealing with the questions concerning the exodus, Masada andago more. Somehow this paper entitled ” Bible, Archaeology and Science” ended up in Researchgate under my name, so one could find it there without repeating again the same contents already published.
Akhenaten is quite another story and does not have much to do with the faith of the Hebrews.ago,
2 Recommendations
12th Dec, 2017
Martin Hofmeister
Consumer Centre of the German Federal State of Bavaria, Germany, Munich
Dear Barry,
Maybe the following papers will help you:
Naʾaman N. The Exodus Story: Between Historical Memory and Historiographical Composition. Journal of Ancient Near Eastern Religions 2011;11(1):39-69. https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/37114928/Exodus_-_JANER_11__2011.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1512469730&Signature=sKdbn3DWDq5NWi455uZuWFeNbK4%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DThe_Exodus_Story_Between_Historical_Memo.pdf
Schmid K. Genesis and exodus as two formerly independent traditions of origins for Ancient Israel. Biblica: Commentarii ad rem Biblicam Scientifice Investigandam 2012;93(2):187-208. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/db67/8242d050fc2eaba714d5bcf86e1c41021fdf.pdf
Harris MJ. How did Moses part the Red Sea? Science as salvation in the Exodus tradition. In Moses in Biblical and Extra-Biblical Traditions. Graupner A, Wolter M (Eds.). Berlin, New York: de Gruyter;2007:5-31. https://s3.amazonaws.com/academia.edu.documents/31462948/How_did_Moses_part_the_Red_Sea.pdf?AWSAccessKeyId=AKIAIWOWYYGZ2Y53UL3A&Expires=1512470672&Signature=%2BVEhCFejaefnkelDUnEcQMnn%2Bqg%3D&response-content-disposition=inline%3B%20filename%3DHow_did_Moses_part_the_Red_Sea_-_Science.pdf
Best wishes from Germany,
Martin
3 Recommendations
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
Jan
I am not suggesting that Akhenaten was directly responsible for the Torah, only that monotheism did not, as is suggested originate in that book and neither did that book or religion exist at the time the Exodus is claimed to have happened.
The lack of evidence for the Exodus makes the Torah stories of the origins of Judaism unlikely.
There simply is no evidence, not only of a large population of slaves worhipping a single God in Ancient Egypt but of any major diaspora at the time of Rameses II. If that had happened it would have been recorded.
It is possible that a small group of people left Egypt, having been influenced by a monotheistic faith at or around the suggested time of Moses/Rameses giving rise to Mosaic myths. It is not possible that tens of thousands of people could have been roaming around the then heaviliy populated middle east without someone recording it ( I mean by that of course someone who did not subscribe to their beliefs and had no ulterior motive)
A huge group of people would not have been able to be sustained or managed in such circumstances without complex logistics and some form of government. They could not have occupied anywhere between Egypt, Mesopotamia or anywhere else in the Levant without falling foul of the other great empires in existence at the time.
They could not have survived in the desert without food and fireplaces, both of which leave extensive archaeological traces.
I will look up your work of course
12th Dec, 2017
Kathleen D Toohey
International Arthurian Society (North American Branch)
According to “Prof. Israel Finkelstein, a senior researcher at the Department of Archaeology at Tel Aviv University and one of the most prominent scholars in the field of biblical archeology today. “The question of historical accuracy in the story of Exodus has occupied scholars since the beginning of modern research,” says Prof. Finkelstein. “Most have searched for the historical and archaeological evidence in the Late Bronze Age, the 13th century BCE, partly because the story mentions the city of Ramses, and because at the end of that century an Egyptian document referred to a group called ’Israel‘ in Canaan. However, there is no archaeological evidence of the story itself, in either Egypt or Sinai, and what has been perceived as historical evidence from Egyptian sources can be interpreted differently. Moreover, the Biblical story does not demonstrate awareness of the political situation in Canaan during the Late Bronze Age – a powerful Egyptian administration that could have handled an invasion of groups from the desert. Additionally, many of the details in the Biblical story fit better with a later period in the history of Egypt, around the 7-6th centuries BCE – roughly the time when the Biblical story as we know it today was put into writing. “However, this was not a story invented by later authors, since references to the Exodus appear in Hosea and Amos’ chapters of prophecy, which probably date to the 8th century BCE, suggesting that the tradition is ancient. In this sense, some scholars propose that the origin lies in an ancient historical event – the expulsion of Canaanites from the Nile Delta in the middle of the second millennium BCE. In any case the Exodus story is layered and represents more than one period. “It seems that the story of the exodus was one of the founding texts of the Northern Kingdom (Israel) and that it came to Judah after the destruction of Israel. It is possible that in the later days of Judah, a time of approaching confrontation with Egypt, the story expressed hope, showing a clash with mighty Egypt of the distant past, in which the Children of Israel prevailed. Later the story held a message of hope for those exiled in Babylon, that it was possible to overcome exile, cross a desert and return to the land of the forefathers. Above all, the story of Exodus has been an eternal metaphor for escaping slavery for freedom, in Jewish and other traditions.””
https://english.tau.ac.il/news/exodus_history_and_myth
The above is in accord with all my own readings over many years. Nor should it be forgotten that the period when the Exodus was supposed to have taken place was a time of major social upheavals, roughly coinciding with the collapse of the Mycenaeans and the Hittites, and the incursions of the Sea Peoples around the eastern Mediteranean all the way down to Egypt.
16 Recommendations
12th Dec, 2017
Stanley Wilkin
University of London
re. Old Kingdom relationships with Canaan and Syrian groups.
The autobiographical material in tombs points to Egyptian involvement to the south, with Punt or its equivalent, and to the west, with Libya. They operated a raiding culture with both, common to many Bronze Age societies. The Egyptians of the period had no interest in Asian societies until the Middle Kingdom-as contained within the story of Sunuhe.
While mention may be made of Moses in Hosea and Amos, they could be anachronisms or constructed at the time as their neighbours probably were constructing similar stories. The Moses story is of a type, i.e. the Aeneid (which nobody holds to be true), Dorian invasion of Greece (which probably had some substance), one burnished by later generations. It need not come from the expulsion of the Hyksos -who recent evidence indicates were not only Asian-with too much belief given to the interpretation of Manetho.
To put that much trust in the construction of identities in the Late Bronze Age amongst possibly shifting populations suffering oppression and intrusive highly skilled armies seems unwarrented.
If we deign to put faith in a probably or possibly doctored text of Hosea and Amos, should we take a similar stance towards Abrahams relative invisibility in early text? The Bible texts are intertextual, a literary device that gives greater credence and power to a text. If the same occurred with Moby Dick (with a god guiding Ahab), with whale’s and Ahab’s names then mentioned in Walt Whitman along with their exploits, then in the Great Gatsby-each book containing a guiding god character-would it make them real?
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
The first mention of Israel in the written record is found on the Merneptah Stele carved between 1213 and 1203 BC placing it in the post Rameses II period. The stele commemorates a military campaign in Canaan and offers clear evidence that the origins of the Israelite/Jewish cultural identity were not connected to Egypt.
Archaeological evidence indicates that this culture evolved from Philistine and Canaanite cultures and demonstrates that there could have been no ‘Jewish’ slaves in the Egypt of Rameses II. Canaan was under the control of Egypt under Rameses but the post Philistine-Canaanite culture would not have developed into an identity at that time.
According to biblical estimates the Israelites were in Egypt between 215 and 430 years placing their arrival there several centuries before the emergence of anything like an identifiable Jewish faith.
The Exodus is therefore simply a fictional story or allegory designed to extend the culture back well before it had evolved. This is an almost universal feature of religious myth. In order in instill an authority based on a creation myth history must be adapted.
2 Recommendations
12th Dec, 2017
Stanley Wilkin
University of London
Barry, can I raise an objection to your initial statement, one I’ve raised many times before.
Its surely only an assumption that the people (s) named refer to the Israelites of later history. Why? We have no reason to believe it was not employed for other groups-perhaps followers of El, the prinicipal god in the area at the time during a competitive tussle with the acolytes of Ba’al. There is evidence that El continued to be worshiped in surrounding states, such as Moab, as the principal god until 500 BCE and probably later.
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
Stanley
I am not preoccupied with the belief systems operating at the time of Rameses II, if we were to be considering that we would have to include the views of every other religion that claims to be the true faith.
My inquiry is as to historical evidence of these events rather than whether they legitimise one deity or another.
My interests are how creation myths are back formed by contemprary political events and how religions assimilate folk stories and myth to give themselves credibility.
As far as can be ascertained every religion today and in history has done this. The Ancient Egyptians themselves had elaborate creation stories and it is certain that they would have been adopted from earlier proto-religious beliefs.
The gods you mention are of particular interest to me in that they would have been the deities that Abraham would have worshipped if he indeed existed. The Abrahamic period was not noted for monotheism and since his origins (earlier caveat applying) were in Mesopotamia he would have worshipped the gods in the local religion and not Yahweh or any other derivatives.
It is without doubt that the biblical stories are a mixture of historical fact and myths, spin and propaganda, as were the Greek heroic stories and the Norse Sagas. The stories are in part real and we need not trouble ourselves with the deities attached to them.
Deleted profile
Can the biblical scripture be the prediction of some events that will take place in the future, rather than events that took place in the past?
2 Recommendations
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
Dmitry
There is no scientific eveidence that would support predicting the future in such detail. It is of course possible to make general predictions but the predictions of the scriptures are usually the product of delusional states of mind, many induced by narcotics.
The arrow of time is unidirectional.
12th Dec, 2017
Stanley Wilkin
University of London
My point concerned the certainty that the Israelite identity went as far back as the New Bronze Age, which seems unlikely to me. But nevertheless the religious identity of the peoples at the time in the area is crucial to understanding the development of the group under the combined name of Israel and Judea.
12th Dec, 2017
Stanley Wilkin
University of London
Sorry, Late Bronze Age
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
The interesting thing about religions is that it is almost impossible to trace their origins to anything like a precise date. Religions nearly always evolve from earlier beliefs rather than spring fully formed into existence as they would sometimes suggest.
The origins of Judaism as a religion clearly predate any cultural or national identity but have been inextricably conflated with the concept of Israel and as with the other monotheisms of the universe itself.
This thread was initiated in response to a request by an RG member on a thread about cosmology.
https://www.researchgate.net/post/Is_there_a_reasonable_alternative_to_the_theory_of_the_expanding_universe?view=5a277d0dcbd5c2bf275c931c
Here the member, in a question about cosmic inflation takes the view that the universe is 5778 years old in order that it corresponds with the date of creation in the Torah. This of course placed the origins of the religion not only with the beginnings of an Israelite/Canaanite ‘state’ but with the beginnings of existence itself.
Most religions take a similar position in placing their origins at the start of time itself, creation myths are at the heart of most religious beliefs. This is of course to establish their absolute authority and hegemony over other religions or as they would express make them the ‘true faith’.
While it is obvious that the stories that made up the Torah would have been considerably older than the book itself it is patently obvious that they did not originate that far back in time. No evidence exists of the credo of any of the religions or ritualism practiced before 3500 BCE although it is clear that religious practices were followed from the archeological evidence, some of it dating back much earlier.
The Torah was put together from myths and legends at around 600 BCE during the Babylonian exile and the originators of the story back-constructed events in order the give it the authority of antiquity. Some of the stories in the Torah would have been centuries old at the time of writing but it is stretching credibility that they dated back 3000 years.
Creation myths are at the heart of all societies even the atheistic variety, it is a natural human urge to want to know where we came from and to ask what the universe is all about. We even have them today in the Big Bang theory. It is remarkable that even with our sophisticated scientific knowledge we still have no real idea how the cosmos was created.
What we do know however is that it was ‘created’ a long, long time before we appeared in it and that it will be there a long time after we are gone.
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Gopikrishna Nidigonda
Chaitanya Engineering College
It is a fictional story…
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
It certainly follows the theories expressed in The Seven Basic Plots: Why We Tell Stories by Christopher Booker. The story of triumph over adversity or ‘good over bad’. A story which creates its own set of authority figures and patriarchs that establish a hegemony.
Fiction is a superb vehicle for ideas and many cultural and traditional values and beliefs are based on fictional stories. Just about all religions fuse historical fact with fiction to create the basis for a belief system.
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
An interesting contemporary script of the Torah is Aesop’s fables written in Ancient Greece at roughly the same time as the Torah was being constructed. This too is a series of morality tales and while not the foundation of a religion per se conveyed the ideas of law, morality and ethics via fiction.
12th Dec, 2017
Stephen I. Ternyik
Techno-Logos, Inc., since 1985
Stephen Gabriel Rosenberg, a senior scholar (archaeology, Albright Institute, Israel), states in several articles (Jerusalem Post) that there is no such evidence. One possible explanation is that any evidence has been erased by the Egyptians, given the narrative. I do not think that the Hebrew Bible is a history book, nor it is a physics book. Most ethical teachings can be accessed by reason and many other statements (in the HB) can only be accepted by faith alone.
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Stanley Wilkin
University of London
Ah, Barry, I have been exploring your points for some time in Ancient Fictionality placed also on this site. My work may, or may not, answer some of your queries.
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
Dmitry, The Torah testimony was full of predictions both past that came to pass and ongoing in progress like the ingahthering of the exiles and the greeening of the land.
It has withstood the test of time and reconciles with all factual science understood in maximum available context, 🙂 not to be found yet on this thread 🙁
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
Stanley
I will be delighted to read your work.
Three and a half thousand years before the Exodus was alleged to have taken place farmers in Egypt were building an infrastructure including storage vessels for harvested grain and facilities for domesticated animals. These events predate the supposed creation date described in the Torah and Bible by millennia.
These small populations left ample archaeological evidence of their existence. Prehistoric hearths made by what were little more than small family groups from this period are not uncommon.
It is not at all feasible that these small groups left distinct archaeological evidence and the supposed tens of thousands led out of Egypt by Moses very much later did not.
We should not date human civilization by reference to myths, fables and fairy stories. It is unnecessary and misleading.
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
Based on scripture ‘Bible Chronology’ Egypt was founded by Mizrayim 7 years post founding by his nephew of Hevron . #We place at about 2010 AM this being 5778 so 3768 YA.
Abraham visited Mizrayim within 20 years of it’s founding at age 76 in 2024 AM.
The Exodus was in 2448 AM so no more than 450 rounded years after the founding of Egypt by Mizrayim the son of Ham ben Noach.
The ice age having ended about 1996 AM so founded not that long after the end of the ice age and dispersion from Bavel.
With the inflated consensus chronology you will never get it all right
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
It is possible that Abraham actually existed as an individual however it is more likely that ‘he’ is a composite character like Moses, a sort of mythological icon.
If he did exist at the time suggested he would not have been a subscriber to the Torah, which was not devised until around a millennia and a half after he would have died. The most wonderful speculative story about his life was written in 1961 by Geoffrey Bibby in his spellbinding book 4000 Years Ago (forgive the hyperbole, it really is that good)
Abraham would have spent his life in Ancient Ur. If he did subscribe to a religion it would have been the one that pertained there and it could not possibly have been Judaism. Most Likely he would have been a worshipper of Ishtar, a Mesopotamian god about as far removed from Yahweh as it was possible to be. Just as Christ could not have been an adherent of the New Testament, Abraham could not have been a subscriber to the Torah.
As for the Ice Age, it has nothing to do with this discussion but we could perhaps open yet another thread to postulate endlessly about it too.
Incidentally 2448 AM is the flight designation of Aeromexico’s service from Colima to Mexico City. Does anyone know why Mizrayin, son of Ham ben Moach was doing that trip?
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12th Dec, 2017
Louis Brassard
The article “Exodus Evidence: An Egyptologist Looks at Biblical History” from the May/June 2016 issue of Biblical Archaeology Review1 wrestles with both of these questions—“Did the Exodus happen?” and “When did the Exodus happen?” In the article, evidence is presented that generally supports a 13th-century B.C.E. Exodus during the Ramesside Period, when Egypt’s 19th Dynasty ruled.
The article examines Egyptian texts, artifacts and archaeological sites, which demonstrate that the Bible recounts accurate memories from the 13th century B.C.E. For instance, the names of three places that appear in the Biblical account of Israel’s Exodus from Egypt correspond to Egyptian place names from the Ramesside Period (13th–11th centuries B.C.E.). The Bible recounts that, as slaves, the Israelites were forced to build the store-cities of Pithom and Ramses. After the ten plagues, the Israelites left Egypt and famously crossed the Yam Suph (translated Red Sea or Reed Sea), whose waters were miraculously parted for them. The Biblical names Pithom, Ramses and Yam Suph (Red Sea or Reed Sea) correspond to the Egyptian place names Pi-Ramesse, Pi-Atum and (Pa-)Tjuf. These three place names appear together in Egyptian texts only from the Ramesside Period. The name Pi-Ramesse went out of use by the beginning of Egypt’s Third Intermediate Period, which began around 1085 B.C.E., and does not reappear until much later.
For more : https://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily/biblical-topics/exodus/exodus-fact-or-fiction/
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Louis Brassard
A proposal by Egyptologist Jan Assmann suggests that the Exodus narrative has no single origin, but rather combines numerous historical experiences into “a coherent story that is fictional as to its composition but historical as to some of its components.” These traumatic events include the expulsion of the Hyksos; the religious revolution of Akhenaten; a possible episode of captivity for the Habiru, who were gangs of antisocial people operating between Egypt’s vassal states; and the large-scale migrations of the ‘Sea Peoples’.[25]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus
2 Recommendations
12th Dec, 2017
Louis Brassard
Archaeology[edit]
A century of research by archaeologists and Egyptologists has found no evidence which can be directly related to the Exodus captivity and the escape and travels through the wilderness,[37] and archaeologists generally agree that the Israelites had Canaanite origins.[38] The culture of the earliest Israelite settlements is Canaanite, their cult objects are those of the Canaanite god El, the pottery remains are in the Canaanite tradition, and the alphabet used is early Canaanite.[39] Almost the sole marker distinguishing the “Israelite” villages from Canaanite sites is an absence of pig bones, although whether even this is an ethnic marker or is due to other factors remains a matter of dispute.[39]
Anachronisms[edit]
Despite the Bible’s internal dating of the Exodus to the 2nd millennium BCE, details point to a 1st millennium date for the composition of the Book of Exodus: Ezion-Geber (one of the Stations of the Exodus), for example, dates to a period between the 8th and 6th centuries BCE with possible further occupation into the 4th century BCE,[40] and those place-names on the Exodus route which have been identified – Goshen, Pithom, Succoth, Ramesses and Kadesh Barnea – point to the geography of the 1st millennium rather than the 2nd.[41]
Similarly, the Pharaoh’s fear that the Israelites might ally themselves with foreign invaders seems unlikely in the context of the late 2nd millennium, when Canaan was part of an Egyptian empire and Egypt faced no enemies in that direction, but does make sense in a 1st millennium context, when Egypt was considerably weaker and faced invasion first from the Achaemenid Empire and later from the Seleucid Empire.[42]
The mention of the dromedary in Exodus 9:3 also suggests a later date of composition – the widespread domestication of the camel as a herd animal is thought not to have taken place before the late 2nd millennium, after the Israelites had already emerged in Canaan,[43] and they did not become widespread in Egypt until c. 200–100 BCE.[44]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Exodus
12th Dec, 2017
Louis Brassard
Richard Elliott Friedman has an interesting hypothesis. The exodus story was true for a very small group of Egyptian jews: the Levite which came out of Egypt and which became the religious leaders and priests of the Isreali tribes of Canaan and which converted them to their Yahwey cult .
https://reformjudaism.org/exodus-not-fiction
12th Dec, 2017
Dickson Adom
Kwame Nkrumah University Of Science and Technology
Biblical evidences in archaeology keeps on being unravelled by archaeological discoveries. The discoveries of the Exodus I believe is in the pipeline…because God’s word is truth (John 17:17)
2 Recommendations
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
The Exodus was written in the 6th century BC during what is known as the Babylonian Exile. This period is the subject of contemporary documentation unlike the Exodus. The Events it is describing are set many centuries earlier usually assumed to be during the reign of Rameses II (1279–1213 BCE)
That would of course explain why the authors were referring to 1st century BC place names rather than 2nd century. We would presume that they were not working on documentary evidence or they would have been more accurate in their geography and would presumably have referred to Rameses by name.
While it is possible that a small number of religious zealots associated with a monotheism left Egypt at that time it is utterly unconvincing that they numbered in the thousands or that they were already established as part of a Jewish faith.
This group may indeed have lived for decades avoiding not only the Egyptians but rival empires that were established in the Levant at that time.
This would be not unlike the Dolcinites, a renegade religious faction in 13th -14th century Europe or even outlaw gangs in 19th century America. What it could not have been is tens of thousands of men, women and children existing in a barren wilderness for forty years without provisions or logistics.
Legends would of course have existed about such a group and it is possible that the Exodus myth was created rather like the Robin Hood myths in medieval England. Robin Hood is of course a character created out of an amalgam of real individuals and the myths and stories about him arose from exaggerations about real events. It is likely that Moses too is an amalgam of characters real and imagined and that the host he lead was in fact a very small group of itinerants rather than a ‘nation’.
These diaspora myths are hugely common in just about all religions and even today our fiction is full of epic journeys and triumph over adversity.
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
We should perhaps pay some attention to the words of Joseph Hill, prohet and visionary and late lead singer with Culture.
“Jah set I & I as a watchman around Babylonian walls”
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Louis Brassard
Dear Barry,
The point of the Exodus was not historical accuracy and so mentioning the name of the Egyptian pharaoh would have been unproductive. Canaan was under Egyptian control and if one oppose this control, one does not address its opposition to a ancient ruler but affirm this opposition to Egypt and staying vague serve this purpose. In the Exodus, the monotheism is not of the Persian type: universal God of the Universe unbiaised regarding any specific people. It is monotheism only In the sense of a choosing of a single deity Yahweh by the jewish tribes much like many other group had their own single deity of their own. Yahweh is affirmed as the deity of the Jewish people and the sign that it is a political struggle to impose Yahweh as a single deity, it is said repeatedly that Yahweh is a jelous god. Its main characteristic his that Yahweh choose the Jewish, is the stronger deity bully of the region, my god is stronger then your gods mentality, and that if you are faithfull to Yahweh then Yahweh will be faithfull to you and if are not than Yahweh won’t. The Egyptians and the Babylonian were large group of people that had many deities since they were grouping of different people, different group each with its own characteristic and so deity but the small Isreali group could not affoard to divide themselves and worship many deity. So this monotheism was more a one party politic providing a greater political integration of the multiple tribes. In those days, instead of saying people we should collectively act this way and have this and this moral and politics, they were saying Yawweh said this and Yahweh said that and we the priest will slaughter whowever do not obey Yahweh as Yahweh told us to do. When you think about it, politic still talk like that, they always portrait their politics as aligned to the most sacred highest ideals of the day while in fact they are simply self-interest position.. For example: dropping atomic bombs on cities for the purpose of saving lifes. IN two thousand years, people will still belief this.
12th Dec, 2017
Nigel Nunn
Australian National University
Hi Barry and Stanley,
Thanks for your measured and sensible contributions. Given your interest in such questions, you may enjoy the unexpected perspective presented in paper 96 in the Urantia book,
http://ubook4u.com/the-urantia-book/part-3/paper-96/
Section 3 (“The Matchless Moses”) begins with this:
“The beginning of the evolution of the Hebraic concepts and ideals of a Supreme Creator dates from the departure of the Semites from Egypt under that great leader, teacher, and organizer, Moses. His mother was of the royal family of Egypt; his father was a Semitic liaison officer between the government and the Bedouin captives. Moses thus possessed qualities derived from superior racial sources; his ancestry was so highly blended that it is impossible to classify him in any one racial group. Had he not been of this mixed type, he would never have displayed that unusual versatility and adaptability which enabled him to manage the diversified horde which eventually became associated with those Bedouin Semites who fled from Egypt to the Arabian Desert under his leadership.”
[ snip ]
“No leader ever undertook to reform and uplift a more forlorn, downcast, dejected, and ignorant group of human beings.”
http://ubook4u.com/the-urantia-book/part-3/paper-96#U96_3_1
with thanks,
Nigel
12th Dec, 2017
Kirk MacGregor
McPherson College
If one thinks the Pharaoh of the Exodus was Rameses II, then I agree that evidence is scanty if not nonexistent. But if one thinks the Pharaoh of the Exodus was a figure between one to two centuries earlier, then the Amarna letters may well provide evidence for the Exodus.
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
The problem with placing the Exodus 200 years earlier, in the reign of Thutmose II is that this is the theory of a devout Christian who would have accepted the Exodus as historical fact. Edersheim took the view that since Thutmose II had suffered a severe skin disease that he was a victim of the plague of boils brought down by Moses.
This is scant evidence of a gigantic event that the Exodus would have been. It still leaves the glaring questions about where the historical and archaeological evidence is of tens of thousands of people wandering in the wilderness. Archaeological evidence of fire hearths from small family groups dating back to 4,300 BCE have been discovered in abundance in Egypt some 2,800 years earlier than Thutmose and 3000 years earlier than Rameses II. It is rather odd that the fire hearths of tens of thousands made over a 40 year period have not been found.
Thutmose II was succeeded by his widow the famous Hatshepsut first as regent and then as Pharaoh herself. There is no indication that she was afflicted by the plague of boils nor any commentary from her reign of the events of the Exodus. Hatshepsut is remembered for the sea going exploration of Egypt’s neighbour Punt and she embarked on one of the biggest building projects in Egypt’s history since the Building of the Pyramids. This vast building project does not appear to have been effected by the loss of tens of thousands of slaves who ‘disappeared’ during the reign of her late husband.
There is one more factor that refutes a disaster such as the Exodus. Egyptian pharaohs were prone to belittle the exploits of their predecessors and this was very marked in those that followed Hatshepsut. There is no historical commentary from Thutmose III reign blaming either her or her late husband for what would have been a major economic disaster to the kingdom. We habe no more reason to place the Exodus 200 years earlier than we do for placing it in the reign of Rameses II
In essence then there is no more evidence of the Exodus taking place under Thutmose II than there is of it being in the reign of Rameses II. It is still much more likely that it was a myth much elaborated on by the scribes in Babylon some 900 years after Thutmose and 700 years after Rameses.
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
Hi Kirk, closer but you have to go back 400 +108 =508 years prior to Ramses II 400 year Stele benchmark to be at the 2448 AM Exodus year..
Amarnah letter period 2858-2888 so less than 200 till 2956 AM event
So Barry is right we will not find evidence of the Exodus by the Amarnah era or anywhere in the New Kingdom, or even during the Hyksos era which set in just after the Exodus.
reference Torah Discovery Chronology
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12th Dec, 2017
Sepp Rothwangl
CALENdeRsign
What about the eruption of Thiatera (Santorin)?
http://www.auaris.at/html/history_en.html
2 Recommendations
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
Sepp
It was a very loud bang!
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
Hi Sepp,
in ‘Torah Discovery Chronology’ we have that during the split Kingdom of Israel, perhaps related to the event by when the Yonah set out for Tarshish before going to Ninveh..
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
The eruption on Thira (1642–1540 BCE) would have caused substantial ecological damage all over the planet. I have been to the island on several occasions and the caldera is huge. The new volcano is rising steadily out of the centre of it and will provide another spectacular explosive (Plinian) eruption sometime in the next few thousand years.
The eruption would have been likely to have damaged crops in Egypt and it severely damaged the Minoan culture, although did not as many have suggested destroy it.
The Eruption of Thira had nothing to do with the Exodus or the mythical plagues of Egypt that preceded it. While undoubted disrupting trade and agriculture this ‘theory’ largely represents the pseudo-scientific fashion for trying find historical or archaeological evidence for the Old Testament bible stories.
To date none has been found that can be corroborated or verified and that presented is anecdotal at best and more often than not rather fanciful coincidence.
Good examples are the search for Noah’s Ark or evidence of sonic weapons used at Jericho. They make for great stories but are impossible by any rational analysis. Naval technology prior to 1000BC could not have built a ship of that size and genetics would have required thousands of each species to proliferate, not just a single pair. In any case the carnivores would have eaten all the herbivores during the voyage.
The walls of Jericho were flood defences not a military rampart and the city was built and abandoned millennia before any idea of Israelites had been invented
3 Recommendations
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
eruption as recent as 2700 +/- years ago
what are some of the benchmarks used to place 3357 to 3659 YA?
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
Perhaps just a few hundred years after Plato 5778-3378 = 2400 +/- YA who recounts catastrophic events that submerged landmasses..
12th Dec, 2017
Kathleen D Toohey
International Arthurian Society (North American Branch)
When I was at high school many years ago a Nun with a bent for science raised the idea that the Thera eruption may have coincided with, and been causally related to, what later became known as the plagues of Egypt. This was a new idea, apparently in keeping with the dating assessment at that time. But scientific advances have now pushed the dating of the eruption, as Barry says, back to around 1600 BCE. This has recently been affirmed to me by my former lecturer and expert on Hittite studies and other mediterranean cultures in the 2nd Millennium BCE, Emeritus Prof. Trevor Bryce both in face to face discussions and at public lectures here.
That places the eruption around 3,600 years ago, not 2,700 as Roger contends.
Roger’s arguments, citing works like the ‘Torah Discovery Chronology’, one of his own books, is clearly based on theological arguments, without any offered independent corroboration. Further problems arise in trying to address the validity of Roger’s contentions through his continual use of an alternative dating system that many readers, I’m sure, are totally unfamiliar with.
This debate highlights the problems of trying to have a reasoned discussion on the historic evidence for any well established religious tradition.
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
Plato’s Critias is an unusual work to cite in support of The Torah. In it he talks of three mythical floods that have destroyed the world over a period of nine thousand years. Interspersed with these are destructions by fire.
Clearly that cannot tally with the timeline envisaged by those who believe the Torah to be chronologically accurate. Even if Plato was talking about the nine thousand years corresponding to the period since the beginning of time, and he is not it would place creation at approx 11,400 years ago.
Plato is reciting an allegorical myth common to all civilisations.
Doomsday scenarios are a part of the human psyche and have been throughout recorded history, we still dwell on them today in our highly sophisticated scientific world. We even talk in anthropic terms of the end of the universe, in spite of such an event being at an inconceivable distance into the future.
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Thorwald Franke
Karlsruhe Institute of Technology
There are no traces because the Exodus did simply not happen. This is well demonstrated e.g. in the popular book “The Bible Unearthed” by Finkelstein and Silberman. Basically, for believers the Bible is no history book, but a book of believe and experience with God. The message of the Exodus story is important, not that it really happened.
2 Recommendations
12th Dec, 2017
Kathleen D Toohey
International Arthurian Society (North American Branch)
At this point it might be helpful to ask, How much, if any, of the Exodus story, has been established by experts to have been in circulation in Israel/Judea prior to the Babylonian exile?
I’d be interested to hear comments on that point.
2 Recommendations
Deleted profile
Dear Barry, there are some disagreements with what is written in the Bible and what is written in my “Letter to UN”.
There are certain things that I do not think constitute a sin. Also, I do not think it is humane to execute someone for sins of others.
Furthermore, belief in God the way it is practiced contemporarily is not in agreement with my letter. It is not in agreement with my mentality.
Deleted research item The research item mentioned here has been deleted
12th Dec, 2017
Anthony B. Nd.
Alfred Wegener Institute Helmholtz Centre for Polar and Marine Research
Dear All,
As a scientist, or may I say a student of science, I am ready to admit that just because I do not see it, or hear it, or smell it, or touch it, or even think about it, does not mean it doesn’t exist. To think otherwise is a classic case of what I prefer to call the ‘arrogance of ignorance’. I do not think accounts by a group of people (so-called experts), who for the most part are completely oblivious of the events occurring in their own bodies and minds in the now, can possibly claim to know for sure what happened millennia ago in some desert location, as to discount the scriptural account of the ‘Exodus’ or any other historical account, simply by having dug a few holes in the sand, studying a few ancient documents etc..
That said, I would like to applaud this thread because if anything, rather than try desperately to disprove the accuracy of a biblical account, with no real facts to back that up, we should help ourselves to understand where we stand as modern humanity, and why the world is in the state it is, and re-examine our positions vis-a-vis the racially-motivated political and social world order in place today, and in the making.
Let’s not forget, Ancient Egypt was not the little strip of land we call Egypt today. Egypt was a large portion of continental Africa and Northeast Africa (today called middle-east). Egyptians were a people of colour and did not speak Arabic or practice Islam as is the case today because Islam is a recent invention.
After many centuries of the reign of Egyptian and other empires of the South, as the greatest empires of their time, from Africa to India, these civilizations finally fell to foreign invaders who established new empires based on war, conquest and enslavement (the best known being the Romans). Following the territorial balkanization, these invaders ransacked the libraries, looted the art, symbols, science, technology, and appropriated cultures and identities. In the specific case of Egypt, most prominently, their religion, symbols and secret orders were appropriated (now owned by a bunch of so-called free-masons / secret societies that have used the sacred knowledge to amass wealth and power, are continuing to fund the disinformation).
Moreover, a campaign was launched to completely eradicate Egypt and all it stood for, racially, socially and culturally. One of the mechanisms used to achieved this was the creation of violent movements which undertook political crusades, masquerading as religious wars. Archaeological cover-ups, fraudulent archaeological finds and and the reinvention of history and science, were all tools used to portray an image of the new masters of the world in the light of the fallen empire, while the original initiators of modern civilization were erased from history (all that is left is the pyramids of Africa, South America and Asia). The concocted story has been packaged in the beautiful little story of the ‘renaissance’ presented with no mention of the fact that it was all based on appropriated and reinvented art, culture and technology. These were coupled with racially motivated pseudo-scientific theories of people like Darwin and those who came before and after him, that culminated in the slave trade, colonization and other ills buried in the dark pages of human history.
Today, neo-colonization, based on instruments of economic and financial enslavement, power-games (of the U.N security council members or the modern core of the old Roman Empire) and implanted rival (pseudo) religio-political entities, are the origin of the never-ending, engineered wars/conflicts in this specific region of the World. Aided by main-stream media complicity, the scape-goat of the present era is well stamped on our minds and in our consciences: ‘radical islam and big bad terrorists’ who are out to destroy our freedoms and liberties!
Has anything really changed?
Ohh, am I out of topic? ….. pardon me please, I lost control of my thought process and fingers… Nonetheless, this little story, especially that which is not taught in the school/indoctrination system could do some good and free some minds. …Just injecting a little dose of humour to this discussion, at a time in History when humour is becoming very rare. Every-one is so serious; relax, the LORD, creator of the universes and everything therein, is looking out for you… whether you believe or not…
Apologies for the lengthy essay..
Cheers
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Stanley Wilkin
University of London
I have largely lost track with the process of this particular question, but I will nevertheless throw in a couple of insights (sic):
The Moses story could be an amalgam of stories, not a single narrative with alterations through time.
Story 1) The birth of Moses, similar to that of Sargon the Great.
The symbolic use of water to indicate a new age-i.e. baby travelling down Nile.
Story 2) Moses (other names can be attached) growing up within the Egyptian Court. This resembles many examples of Egyptian literature.
Story 3) Exile into Canaan. Sinuhe story.
Story 4) Moses (any other name would do as well) as magician.
Story (one amongst many) of Moses on mountain receiving commandments. Earlier stories state he, or whichever other leading magician, went up the mountain to debate with elders and, possibly, god. No commandments are mentioned.
The commandments story fits in with Mesopotamian projections of law or rule giving.
Final Story: conquest story, which appears completely fabricated. No evidence and in this instance, given the history of the area, no genuine likelihood.
This construction fits in with the creation of other epics closely allied in time and intention. The changing nature of the god (s) portrayed within this story-combination, 4 different ones at least, equally confirms of likelihood of this hypothesis.
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
Most legends seem to be constructed out of an amalgam of stories and that is frequently the explanation of the Exodus. One great event constructed out of a series of much smaller and very much adapted descriptions of events.
It is possible that many of the events described in the Exodus are based on ‘real’ events but others are plainly fictional. The story of the infant Moses being placed in a reed basket for instance cannot have been recorded contemporaneously.
The story of the golden calf could be an allegory for any sort of religious dispute of which there would have been many in the 1st millennium BC. Rivalry between cults and within them was just as common then as today.
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Stanley Wilkin
University of London
The magician episode in the Moses narrative comes directly, almost word for word, from episodes in Mesopotamian literature.
It is likely, barry, that a number of stories in the Bible come from other groups-the prophet stories for example may actually be from other religions that made the same claims as YHWH acolytes.
My point is, around about the exiles’ return a number of stories were gathered from around the Middle East and Mesopotamia as indicative of YHWH and his followers. Plonk YHWH into a text, and you have the Bible. YHWH serves as a connecting main character giving liefmotif to a great number of disparate stories, often with little connection. The Joseph story probably had Egyptian origins (it looks like it), Job has origins outside of the YHWH cult, Jonah too, as we know Noah certainly had. Prophets were a common class in Canaan and Syria throughout the Ist millennium, not just situated in Israel and Judah (the direct result of state failure).
3 Recommendations
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
First of all there is no fully consistent undisputed pinpointing of the Thera eruption event.
All is based on assumptions..
What may be mistaken for that Eruption that did occur 3730 years ago was the eruption and or impact associated with the destruction of Sodom and Gamorah..
reference TDC ‘Bible Chronolgy’
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
As with the Exodus story there is no corroborated evidence of the existence of Sodom and Gomorrah.
If Sodom and Gomorrah ever existed it is likely they were small towns of around 1000 people and could have been in the vicinity of the Dead Sea. Large conurbations were rare in the Bronze Age and most settlements were of around 20 hectares or smaller.
It is highly unlikely that a city of 30,000 or more would have vanished without trace even in a large earthquake. On Santorini (Thera) the site of a, enormous volcanic eruption vastly larger than any seismic activity in the Dead Sea region in the Bronze Age there is a large amount of archeological evidence of the settlements that were there at the time of the eruption. For two such cities, in the same vicinity to be completely missing from the historical record would be unprecedented.
Other problems occur in suggesting that these places were in fact ‘cities’. There is no evidence of large-scale economic activity or agriculture in this region dating back to the second millennium BC. Bronze Age cities of a large size such as Mycenae or Knossos were supported by a large infrastructure leaving significant evidence.
The bible story suggests that they were destroyed in a hail of fire and brimstone. Some biblical scholars have found evidence of high temperature events in the area where it is postulated that Sodom & Gomorrah were located but there is no evidence of a major conflagration and the evidence has not been corroborated.
As for an asteroid as the culprit any planetary impactor leaves traces and one as late as less than 4000 years ago would have certainly been found. There is no crater and no rare metal trace that would be expected from such an impact.
The most likely explanation of the story is that an oral tradition passed down the tale of the destruction exaggerating wildly as it passed through the generations. Like the Exodus there may have been a series of small events that for some reason were lodged in the cultural mythology as one big one.
The point is the bible is not an accurate historical account but a series of morality tales like Aesop’s Fables. The destruction of these ‘cities’ tells us not to be bad people or else.
P.S. The biblical story does not make sense anyway. What was the necessity of sending down two angels to ‘gather evidence’ of the sinning of the people of Sodom? Isn’t God supposed to be omniscient?
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Stanley Wilkin
University of London
Although an omniscient god would have no need of additional corroboration, the two scribal or clerical angels making checks reflect the behaviour of Persian kings who did operate in this manner. If seen in his way, the omnipresent YHWH’s behaviour fits a clear Iron Age pattern based upon huge empires and the necessity of effecting rule and preventing rebellion-particularly in its perifery. In fact, the returning exiles operated as the Persian Emperor’s ears and eyes with an apparent instruction to ensure order. They were the Emperor’s agents, paid and aided. What better way to keep order than through a powerful priesthood conjuring up a demanding god who loved rules and regulations?
the Abraham story was written to demonstrate the exiles’ right to govern, showing their ancient lineage, as were the following fables of tribes and patriarchs.
3 Recommendations
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
The Abraham story is one of classic back-formation. That is to establish a myth and then drive it as far back in history as possible on the rather curious assumption that the older it is the more authoritative.
The Torah, written in the middle of the 1st millenium BC is back formed another 3000 years to encompass all of the old testament prophets and ‘accumulate’ their perceived wisdom and authority.
If Abraham existed he would have lived in the vicinity of Ur and would have subscribed to a religion & a calendar that placed the age of the Earth at two million years. According to the Chaldeans the age of man was 473,000 years so it is clear that he would not have subscribed to the 5778 starting date preferred in the Torah.
The authors of the Torah wanted to include him in the pantheon even though he would not have been a believer in any monotheistic faith.
This is not uncommon even today, politicians like to suggest that their form of political creed is older than the evidence shows in order to give it the dignity of antiquity.
Bishop Ussher back calculated the creation of the Earth to 22nd October 4004 BC by reading back through the cast list of the Old Testament presumably after drinking several large glasses of fortified wine.
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
HI Barry, in short we disagree, from my perspective the evidence is consistent w/ Torah narrative and 5778 year to date time line including the 5 towns of Sodom and Gemorah. why did you use the population figure of 30k?
Four of the 5 were found 1996 AM and destroyed 52 years later in 2048 AM or 2047 Passover time of year (Mid Nissan) in the spring.
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
no Abraham would not have, by the time he was 58 he had spent decades with Noach and Shem who knew Metusaleh who knew Adam.
He was not an ‘Ivri’ for nothing as he, Shem and Ever did not participate in Migdal Bavel, kept the edenic language of Adam, dispite the pervasive popular of culture that you still cling to 🙁 when all the answers are ‘hiding’ in plain site. Just ask me if you can not see.
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
Roger
It goes without saying we disagree, you believe in the biblical myths and I don’t.
There is no problem with this, in your universe there is a single god and in mine there is simultaneously no god and an infinite number of them.
Since Yaweh has no domain outside of the universe of the believer and both universes are non-contingent both are compatible with current quantum theory.
Belief can make things come true but only for the believer. I knew someone who believed he was both Daghda and hydrogen. It is of course possible that he was both. He had determined that he was Daghda because the digits of his aunt Irene’s birthday added up to the atomic weight of iron. There was of course a slight discrepancy because he had rounded up the mass to 56 when it is 55.845.
Daghda is of course the Celtic god of plenty and exists when people believe him to.
This gentleman was also hydrogen because he was created in the Big Bang, That also is demonstrably true.
What do you think is the meaning of Adam and Eve went up my sleeve and didn’t come down ‘til Christmas Eve. Do you think this might be a mistranslation?
The prophet and visionary Joseph Hill stated that there was “no night in Zion” and that Jah had “set I and I as a watchman around Babylonian walls”. Is it possible that Zion is therefore a tidally locked planet and that Babylon was a building site?
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
Hi Barry, the greater the claim the greater the burden of proof using the science yardstick.
Your claim of an alternate universe and deeper-time is a vastly greater claim than my 5778 years to date and one physical universe.
My Torah testimony made predictions, was easily falsifiable if not true, yet has stood the test of time.
your misrepresentations and ignorance of Torah in no way negates it, but does diminish your credibility 🙁
12th Dec, 2017
Nigel Nunn
Australian National University
Hi Roger and Barry,
PS: Roger, given your view of the Torah, as a skeptical scientist, what do you make of the (below) glimpses of history from the Urantia book?
With regard to stories worth digging into, one of my favorites is the one about the guy to whom Abraham was in the habit of giving 10 percent of any spoils (e.g. Genesis 14:20). The best version of this story can be found here:
2. The Sage of Salem
(1015.1) 93:2.1 It was 1,973 years before the birth of Jesus that Machiventa [Melchizedek] was bestowed upon the human races of Urantia. His coming was unspectacular; his materialization was not witnessed by human eyes. He was first observed by mortal man on that eventful day when he entered the tent of Amdon, a Chaldean herder of Sumerian extraction. And the proclamation of his mission was embodied in the simple statement which he made to this shepherd, “I am Melchizedek, priest of El Elyon, the Most High, the one and only God.”
http://ubook4u.com/the-urantia-book/part-3/paper-93#U93_2_1
With regard to how and why Abram/Abraham got caught up in historical events, see:
5. The Selection of Abraham
(1018.6) 93:5.1 Although it may be an error to speak of “chosen people”, it is not a mistake to refer to Abraham as a chosen individual. Melchizedek did lay upon Abraham the responsibility of keeping alive the truth of one God as distinguished from the prevailing belief in plural deities.
(1018.7) 93:5.2 The choice of Palestine as the site for Machiventa’s activities was in part predicated upon the desire to establish contact with some human family embodying the potentials of leadership.
http://ubook4u.com/the-urantia-book/part-3/paper-93#U93_5_1
With regard to how and why Moses got involved, from paper 96 section 4:
4. The Proclamation of Yahweh
(1056.4) 96:4.2 Moses had heard of the teachings of Machiventa Melchizedek from both his father and his mother, their commonness of religious belief being the explanation for the unusual union between a woman of royal blood and a man from a captive race. Moses’ father-in-law was a Kenite worshiper of El Elyon, but the emancipator’s parents were believers in El Shaddai. Moses thus was educated an El Shaddaist; through the influence of his father-in-law he became an El Elyonist; and by the time of the Hebrew encampment about Mount Sinai after the flight from Egypt, he had formulated a new and enlarged concept of Deity (derived from all his former beliefs), which he wisely decided to proclaim to his people as an expanded concept of their olden tribal god, Yahweh.
http://ubook4u.com/the-urantia-book/part-3/paper-96#U96_4_1
Thanks for the interesting contributions,
Nigel
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
Roger
“Your claim of an alternate universe and deeper-time is a vastly greater claim than my 5778 years to date and one physical universe”.
Why is that your claim?
Why is it a claim?
“My Torah testimony made predictions, was easily falsifiable if not true, yet has stood the test of time.
Your Torah testimony? Why is it yours?
I do not have a claim, I am asking for evidence not staking a claim.
I am fascinated by the observation on ‘standing the test of time’ Time extends considerably further back than 5778 years.
The Prophet Gad was testifying to his bredren 6000 years ago telling them to look to Africa for the coming of a King. Not only was the Earth around in those times but it had had sufficient times for plate techtonics to have separted Africa as a continent and for humans to have recognised the coming of Jah Rastafari, who is of course the Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah, King of Kings and Negus of Ethiopia.
I am sure that you would not suggest that the Prophet Gad was wrong in his testimony.
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
you claim multi verse and deeper time both vastly greater claims in science than 5778 years to date.
12th Dec, 2017
Stanley Wilkin
University of London
Isn’t this conversation now spiralling into an ever-deepening hole from which it will be difficult to re-emerge with dignity?
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
o and Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
Stanley
Point taken. The magic word in the question is EVIDENCE.
Statements of belief are not a substitute for it. The Torah is a very funny book but relying on it as evidence is like relying on the Men in Black movies as evidence of extra-terrestrial life.
Incidentally I do not claim the existence of a multiverse. It is impossible to observe such a phenomenon or verify its existence so the existence of such a state of affairs cannot be maintained scientifically.
However that the universe is older than 5778 years is self evident. Vast amounts of evidence demonstrate that as a fact. We might not know how the universe came into existence or how it will end but there is no doubt that it took an awful lot longer than 5778 years to get where we are today.
Attempting to understand history or science by referencing one book written twa half millenia ago will inevitably lead to folly.
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Kathleen D Toohey
International Arthurian Society (North American Branch)
Sadly, Barry, I do agree with Stanley in his concern that the discussion is falling into a black hole. Roger’s posts cannot be debated or challenged because they clearly come from his own personal need to validate the historical accuracy of the Torah. His comments often remind me of an extravagant exegesis on the beatitudes that I read many years ago. Basically, to the writer, it did not matter at all how many beatitudes actually came from Jesus. If there were eight, it was a Holy Octave, if seven … You get my drift. You cannot argue against that sort of self-justification.
Nor do I think it helpful to deprecate sacred (to some people) religious texts by describing them as a very funny book.
Like you, I do not accept the Torah or other parts of the Bible as literally true. But these works part of the historical record, just as much as Suetonius, Plutarch, the Satyricon, and the Egyptian books of the dead. They all have things to say about the past, but all need to be approached with a critical eye, taken account of the mass of other literary, archaeological, historiographic and other kinds of evidence now being used to analyse the past.
That’s where this discussion began. And if it is to continue, then perhaps it would be best to simply pass over comments outside the standard principles of historical analysis.
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
Kathleen
Why should a religious book not be funny? It is interesting that monotheistic religions are seen as dour and ‘serious’ when many other religious traditions celebrate humour.
There is a theory, expounded in fiction by Umberto Eco in The Name of the Rose that the medieval church deliberately suppressed Aristotle’s second book of poetics which was on humour.
The Old Testament is full of stories of prophets and martyrs mocking the religions of others. Christ used sarcasm and satirised the worldly as did St. Paul.
I agree with you entirely that the works of Suetonius, Plutarch, the Satyricon, and the Egyptian books of the dead are from the historical record as are the books of Homer but they are not ‘history books’. I am fond of the writings of Tacitus but they are more social and political commentary than an attempt to record history.
No serious historical researcher would take any written history as being entirely accurate. Myth forms very quickly and even the stories of WW2 are infilttrated by it. That is only just over 70 years ago, to suggest a book written approx 2600 years ago could be accurate is stretching credibility.
I am inclined to believe that much that is written in ancient religious scripts is loosely based on historical events passed down largely in oral story telling tradition. I have an excellent analysis (conjectural of course) of the early life of Abraham in the city of Ur in the 2nd millenium BC written by Geoffrey Bibby.
Bibby’s depiction of him is as an Amorite prince who visited the Egypt of Sesostris II. This depiction is every bit as valid as the one portrayed in the Torah. Bibby himself points out that no contemporary evidence exists of Abraham and that the first literary mention of him was written 1200 years later. However to quote Bibby, “knowing the careful way in which genealogical and tribal historical tradition is transmitted by word of mouth among non-literate people, we can assune with considerablke certainty that he did exist”
Dating his life is far more difficult and the period is placed roughly around 1930-1860 BC. Living during that period he would have been a devotee of the God Ishtar and not of Yaweh, who had not at that time been invented.
2 Recommendations
12th Dec, 2017
Stanley Wilkin
University of London
Barry, the god suggested in the Abraham story seems to be El, which would fit in with his possible (it is not clear that Ur is meant) Mesopotamian background as Enlil could have been a West Semitic god originally, a version of El. I personally do not believe that Abraham existed-except in a liminal world like say Robin Hood or King Arthur. The stories of Arthur, although they may have existed to some degree in folklore, were conspicuously a literary construction in both England and France. There is no reason to believe that Abraham wasn’t also. Unfortunately, because the Bible’s written presence looms so large, history has been sacrificed.
The bible stories can be compared to Tacitus as he did not write the truth so much as political and social allegory-choosing heroes to make a pertinent point in his own day.
I agree with you about the stories being ‘funny’ and that the monotheistic Abrahamic religions have tried to secure the rights on religious solemnity, passing it off as the only way to worship. Judaism, many forms of Christianity and Islam crucially all abet this condition, vieing it seems for the longest faces, the emptiest lived lifes, monotony and miserablism.
3 Recommendations
12th Dec, 2017
Stanley Wilkin
University of London
It’s worth looking at literary historical fiction, how it works and its power. Even more recent examples testify to the above characteristics. Take Rob Roy by Walter Scott, a bandit re-written as fictional hero, both within historical truth and outside of it, or Invanhoe who never existed. They exist with a life of their own, not within history nor outside of it, structured to supply ethnic heroes within notions of justice and equality. If the writer is forgotten along with the processes of creation, both would become embedded within history. Here we have David and Abraham, but in a different context.
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
Barry where did you get a story about a Prophet Gad 6k YA?
the entire source would be prove unreliable by that one statement alone based on ‘Bible Chronology as there was nothing physical over 5778 YA. 🙂
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
Abraham went down at age 76 to Mizrayiim (Egypt) (a grandson of Noac via Ham) w/in 20 years of it’s founding and was there for under a year w/ Lot and Sarah, that is when Hagar he Egyptian princess (mother of Ishmael) opted to join him in 1948+76= 2024 AM Ishmael was born 10 years later in 2034 AM so 13 by the birth of Isaac in 2048 AM which was 400 years prior to the 2448 AM Exodus.
Thus observant Ishmaelite males circumcise at age 13 and children of Isaac via Jacob at 8 days old.
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
Roger
Physical existence or matter has existed since shortly after the Big Bang.
The planet Earth was formed by planetary accretion of dust and materials from countless super nova around 4.5 billion years ago. Life has existed on this planet for 3.5 billion years and complex multi celled life for over 600 million years.
The human history of the Levant, the location of most of the stories in the bible dates back to the lower palaeolithic 1.4 million years ago when hominid dispersal reached Ubeiyeda. Human occupation continued throughout the middle, upper and Epi-Paleolithic with complex cultures appearing 20,000 years ago. 13,000 years ago the Natufian culture established large communities , sedentary lifestyles and agriculture. The Natufians developed sophisticated flint and obsidian tools, bone ornaments and jewelry, bows and arrows and domesticated the dog.
There is vast evidence of human occupation of the Levant alone dating back well over a million years. There is an enormous amount of archeological evidence of complex human settlement dating back tens of thousands of years that clearly involved religious practices that predate the Torah by many millennia.
I respect your right to ignore an enormous accumulation of evidence from dozens of scientific disciplines developed over centuries, in favour of a book of stories written by priests with a vested interest. I am afraid however that I cannot accept your insistence that everyone else should defer to such an unscientific approach to every academic discipline embraced by humanity since the ancient times.
If absolute unquestioning belief in the supernatural gives you comfort then that is nice. It is equally possible to be enchanted by the universe of science and culture that operates quite well without deities or prophets guiding every move.
Incidentally, according to Bibby Abraham was 38 when he took a trading caravan to the Egypt of Sesostris II. He did not ‘go down’ into Egypt he went ‘up’ into it. The Egyptian world was ‘upside down’ in relation to the modern world. Lower Egypt around the Nile Delta was north of Upper Egypt.
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
Hi Barry, all your deep-time doctrine presumed dates are based on weak science at best.
sure if asserted deep-time dependent Copernican Principle, Neo-Darwinism are true yo would have guessed right, like a broken clock 2x a day.
but again you have flawed logic such as circular reasoning that you base your position on.
you make vastly greater claims as i noted to boot.
the overwhelming empirical evidence refutes deep-time doctrine dogma.
ID and YeC own the mantle of science.
wake up 🙂
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
whoever said/holds Abraham at age 38 went to an established Egypt is ignorant, as Egypt not founded till a bit after Abraham age 58 in 2006 AM
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
Also it depends how you define Torah as to when it fits in Chronology.
Torah revelation at Sinai was 50 days after the Exodus shortly after the fall of the old kingdom, by the start of the Hyksos invasion.
so long after the rise and fall of the Akkadian emprie.
but being late does not mean not being the most accurate and a fully accurate narrative.
In another sense Torah preceded science as it preceded the laws of nature, creation and time so is in a sense timeless/eternal.
as the physical universe was designed to accommodate our spiritual growth via free-choice to be aware and connect to our One common designer/creator.
so aside from being an ‘owners manual’ it was the ‘blue-print’.
it is also an unbroken time-line going back to the original physical matter and 6 days later the first person and scientist ‘Adam’ .
So no credible tradition pre-dates Torah, the best they can do is tie 🙂
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
Roger
Egypt was not ‘founded’ at six minutes past eight and in any case 20:06 is six minutes past eight in the evening and is therefore not AM but PM. The Egyptians did not use 12 hour analog clocks so they would not have recognised 20:06 at all.
Egypt was consolidated as a state by Narmer (Menes) in 3100BC with the unification of Upper and Lower Egypt at the time of the end of the proto-dynastic period. This places it approximately 1200 years before Abraham was born in Ur.
Being ‘ignorant’ of the Torah is not the same as being ignorant per se. The Torah is not an authoritative text and even most of the Jews today do not believe in it as a literal historical record. I am well aware that you do and you are welcome to.
What is inexplainable is why you think everyone else should adopt such a strange set of beliefs. It is not common for Jews to proselytise in fact it would be counter intuitive in a ‘chosen people’.
Abraham, blessings and peace be upon him embraced Islam and built the Ka’baa in Mecca, this is well testified to in the Holy Qu’ran. Would you mind explaining why you do not consider that to be historical fact?
I have no objection to anyone having faith and believing what they like from the scriptures of revealed religions but it is rather bizarre that they would want to bombard others, who clearly do not share those beliefs with their dogma.
Returning to Ancient Egypt the civilisation there had established religions every bit as plausible as that expressed in the Torah thousands of years before it was even imagined. They even invented the world first recorded monotheistic religion, again many centuries before the Torah was written in 1st millenium Babylon.
Please enjoy you faith by all means I hope it brings you great comfort. This however is the last time I intend to reply to comments based on the authority of a credo I do not subscribe to.
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Louis Brassard
Barry,
”This places it approximately 1200 years before Abraham was born in Ur.”
In most likeness, Abraham is a fictitious character. A very important fictitious father of a nation and an important hero like Odysseus was for the Greeks or Krishna. So that date is a date into a fictitious story.
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
Hi Nigel, I just noticed your post above.
Malki-Tzedek king of Shalem ie Jerusalem is Shem ben Noach.
He was the ‘Cohein’ high priest after Noach passed in 2006 AM,
so to was the entire Holy Land allocated to Shem and confirmed by lottery by with Ham and Yafes.
Shem transferred it all Priesthood and related Holy Land, to Abraham in 2033 AM when Abraham 83 or 84 reference Abraham until the Exodus.
that text you reference is not reliable as this was 5778-2033= 3745 years ago not the inflated date they use.
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
Hi Nigel, it is true Moses was aware of a lot of Torah prior to revelation at Sinai from his mom Yochevet the daughter of Levi and dad Amram the head of the Torah theology school Yeshiva in Egypt
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
Hi Barry I assumed you knew/know AM is for Anno Mundi dating year count. when I use it is based on formation of Adam in full stature on day six which was day one of the lunar month now known as ‘Tishrei’ as the start of year 1 AM this being 5778 AM on the Lunar/solar inter- calculated calendar.
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
I am not trying t proselytize anyone to Judaism.
I am merely pointing out Toras MOshe, the 5 books of Moses understood in maximum available context is accurate testimony of the historic actuality and fully aligns with the factual observations taken in maximum available context.
you can try to understand why that is true or opt to live in denial, but u can’t expect to mock what I know what is true and expect me not to correct your lies.
I am fine w/ your saying you do not know and agree to disagree respectfully.
also I hold all good people go to heaven, and there is zero need to convert to Judaism to be a good person.
but a good person would not mock Toras Moshe, nor obstruct others from keeping their respective 7 – 613 covenants therein.
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
Roger
I have already told you that I do not ‘mock’ the Torah, it is simply that I do not believe in it. I am quite within my rights to dispute the fanciful claims within it since so many are impossible. I take into account it was written 2600 years ago by people who had no concept of modern science.
I have no objection to people keeping covenants, prostrating themselves before statues of saints, chanting Hare Krishna or going on the Haj. I only object to them suggesting everyone else should.
Demanding that everyone agrees that the Torah is literally true is in fact proselytising every bit as much as the street preacher demanding that we repent or the Jehovah’s Witness handing out the Watchtower. Describing modern science as lies is also proselytising. In my home town there is a street preacher with a big sign saying “Evolution is a Lie”. He is proselytising.
The question asks about evidence of the bible stories and logic dictates that the stories themselves are not evidence. For the sake of clarity I am using the word evidence in the scientific sense not the legal. I mean corroboration of the story not testimony about it.
There is no scientific, or historical evidence corroborating the Exodus. There is no contemporary evidence of the existence of Abraham, although I consider that such a character was based on one or more individuals described in tribal stories passed down in the oral tradition. The authors of the Torah and other scriptures of revealed religion ‘adopted’ him as a prophet in order to give gravitas to the books. If Abraham was real of course he would no more have been Jewish than Christ was a Christian.
On a final note I have absolutely no objection to you adhering to your faith. You can do that quite easily without demanding that others accept it as fact. I agree with you too that converting to Judaism is no guarantee of creating a good person. This thread is about understanding religions, not converting to them. It would be far better if we went back to that discussion.
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
Hi Barry,
even if you are right on the science we dispute, you do know science is not absolute.
so at best you may ‘think’ what you hold but there is no way for you to ‘know’ what you are asserting.
If Torah testimony is as credible as i hold then i do indeed ‘know’ as testimony is unlike science, and fully reliable testimony allows one to know rather than science that deals in probabilities.
Again from my perspective the scientific probability of ID and YeC is as close to 100% as one can get and the scientific probability of deep-time dogmatic dependent doctrine that includes such as NTD Darwinsm and the Copernican Principal is as close to zero % as one can get in science.
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
you do admit if the universe is about 6k years old and not billions, the scriptural testimony would look like the most probable narrative even to you, yes?
12th Dec, 2017
Louis Brassard
Dear Barry,
Roger is not more proselityzing than you. He express his beliefs and you express yours. Your beliefs are within the spectra of some scientific consensus and historical consensus. But the Bible is not a scientific, nor an historical book. Criticizing upon these dimensions is missing the main point of the Bible. The Bible is a repository of the wisdom of a people. A wisdom whose purpose is not scientific, nor historical, but on how to go about life. In the same way, the Odessy is not a scientific, nor an historical book, but a repository of the ancient wisdom of the Greek people.
1 Recommendation
12th Dec, 2017
Barry Turner
University of Lincoln
Louis
Proselystising is about trying to convince people that your view is the correct and the only one. I am asking a question here about why there is no evidence to support the bible story of the Exodus. I do not have any ‘beliefs’ about the Exodus and neither does it matter to me if others do.
They can believe in anything they chose but they are not allowed to tell me that I must believe it.
The Oddysey is a work of fiction as is the vast majority of the bible and I am well aware of its purpose in terms of community cohesion and authority. The Odyssey did not seek to suppress the vast body of physical and mathematical sciences that are also in the ‘repositry’ of the Ancient Greek people. For many centuries the revealed religions did just that with great savagery. Christianity destroyed many great works on the grounds of heresy.
I cannot recall the Oddysey or the Illiad ever being used to justify an argument that the world is only 6000 years old or that the moon is made of cream cheese. We can gain a morality lesson from them without such vanities.
The Religious texts give hegemony to a priest class who are there to exploit the rest. As for it being a ‘repository of the wisdom of the people’ that is questionable on a number of planes.
Few religions tollerate any interpretation of that ‘repository’ rather preferrring to maintain it to maintain power.
The universe is not merely 6000 years old, it is billions of years old. It is quite possible to adhere to a religious faith and accept the reality that modern science has shown us. It is however entirely unecessary to attribute the creation to a deity simply because we do not know how the universe came to exist.
I am not religious but If I was I would be most likely to be Rastafarian because they have the most accurate interpretation of the scriptures.
On a final point about proselystising and the Exodus. I have been asking for evidence of the event and it is possible that it has not been found for one very good reason. The Exodus was the flight out of Egypt of a large band of Ethiopians led by a black Moses who took them into the promised land in Africa. Bob Marley said that the Exodus was a “movement of Jah people” We have simply been looking in the wrong place.
12th Dec, 2017
Roger M. Pearlman CTA
Northeastern University
Barry you say you do not have a view/bias, yet you are adamant that you are right others are wrong 🙁
by your definition you are the religious like zealot trying to Proselytize. 🙂
i thought you started this thread so we could debate.
advise if u do not want my input, TY
12th Dec, 2017
Nigel Nunn
Australian National University
Hi Roger and Barry – given that the most historically consistent version of the Moses story seems to be found in Paper 96 of the Urantia book, if either of you have the time, I’d love to hear what you make of it. Here’s a link to an online version:
http://ubook4u.com/the-urantia-book/part-3/paper-96/
thanks – Nigel

https://www.researchgate.net/post/Why_is_there_no_evidence_of_the_Exodus